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User talk:RaenaLamora
Welcome Hi, welcome to Umineko no Naku Koro ni Wiki! Thanks for your edit to the User:RaenaLamora page. Please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! -- DinoQueen13 (Talk) 21:41, October 8, 2012 RaenaLamora (talk) 18:54, October 10, 2012 (UTC) Re: Asuka I'm so used to intervening in people's fights that this is practically a revival of old routine. I wouldn't particularly recommend creating an actual article for discussing theories. There is a Forum that could be used for that purpose, though. Also, although Asuka's reaction may have been extreme, I would have at least tried asking her why she undid your edit before redoing it again. Redoing edits deliberately undone by an Admin or Bureaucrat tends to infuriate them, as you have witnessed. --[[User:DinoQueen13|'DQ13']] ~ Let the whole world come see you and know how beautiful you are. 22:37, October 9, 2012 (UTC) :Also, protecting the page would not be counter-productive, because what you two were doing was edit warring, which in itself is counter-productive. As I said, take it up with the Admin on either their talk page or the page's talk page rather than redoing your edits. --[[User:DinoQueen13|'DQ13']] ~ Let the whole world come see you and know how beautiful you are. 18:47, October 10, 2012 (UTC) ::It's less that Asuka's refusing to talk about it and more that she hasn't even come on since the incident, since she hasn't come on since October 2nd. I would just hold off on the subject for the moment; if she's not willing to talk about it at the moment, just give it some time, gather more proof (if possible), and then revive the topic. I haven't read the Visual Novels, only the manga on sporadic cases, so I can't really help you on the topic itself. ::Also, it doesn't really matter whether you put your response on your own talk page or on mine. I'll see it either way. --[[User:DinoQueen13|'DQ13']] ~ Let the whole world come see you and know how beautiful you are. 19:04, October 10, 2012 (UTC) ::Alrighty then. It's probably something that needs a good lengthy discussion, and I doubt there will be an agreement as believers of the ShKanon take it as were they granted the solution. ::Also, thanks for clarifying that thing about responding on either page. You didn't need to tell me that, but you did anyway. I didn't know. Thanks for helping me out. I'm sorry I'm sorry for getting pissed at you. I haven't been on since I haven't had any possible way to get on the internet. But the reasons I deleted it for a few reasons. One being that from what is actually said in the actual VN is that ShKanon is the truth. Even if you don't agree with it it is the truth stated in the VN. Yes I over-reacted and I will say that. If you want to make an edit like that ask first because that is a big edit and is a theory and as you can see from our wiki we don't have super long theories all over everything. If you want to do that use the forum or since it seems to be a very popular theory make a seperate page for it. But add at the top that it is a THEORY and not the truth that was given in the story. Also forgot to add another reason I deleted them is because they are valid arguments in the translation ONLY. In the japanese version the words people/person/human are all the same word with an undefined and constantly changing definition. AsukaHanyuYay (talk) 15:39, October 13, 2012 (UTC) : Apology accepted. Is it ever stated in red that ShKanon is the truth? : And if it is the truth, then Hideyoshi is an accomplice in the first game - but he illogically decides to hand himself and his wife over to the epitaph, and essentially wants to be killed. After all, Kanon stands next to Hideyoshi when Shannon's corpse is discovered, which means Hideyoshi is lying to George - so he is in on the whole murder-scenario with Shannon/Kanon. He needs to be an accomplice for it to work, but why would he leave the safety of the parlor to let himself die? Both were killed by another person! So they have to be dead. : Also, is Ryukishi purposely fooling himself by stating he is writing, even if only one person arrives at the truth?ShKanon is written all over the novels. Anyone who read them would instantly accept ShKanon at the truth. : Merely questions - and I doubt those are translation-related. : RaenaLamora (talk) 12:27, October 14, 2012 (UTC) : Yay now this is something I think is actually fun to discuss and the Eva and Hideyoshi can be solved in a very simple way. This is Ep 6. Hideyoshi was an accomplice being put into believing that everything was just a murder game and none of it was real. However, after finding out the truth Hideyoshi turned on Yasu and tried to protect himself and Eva by locking themselves up in their room. Hideyoshi wasn't going to blab about it and out Yasu because Yasu probably threatened him with the bomb so he wouldn't reveal anything so he just wanted to protect himself and Eva. Although this didn't go over very well and Yasu murdered both of them. He never handed himself over to the epitaph it was just bad planning on him wanting to protect himself and his wife. He didn't bring George along because Yasu was in love with George so he would be safe. AsukaHanyuYay (talk) 21:48, October 14, 2012 (UTC) ::: I'm glad you're enjoying this then, it's a much better way to get around every possibility :) ::: If Hideyoshi found out about Yasu, then why would he leave the parlor with Eva though? That seems illogical to me. He's literally handing himself over to the wolf-sheep puzzle by splitting the group - I'm not sure why he would do that. Also, if Yasu threatened him with the bomb, it would make even less sense to leave himself vulnerable - It would be strange that Hideyoshi found it to be a good idea to enter a room, with only a chain to separate him from Yasu - I mean, he knows Yasu has the tools in the mansion and she knows exactly where to find them. Also, if he and Eva had stayed with George, it would have been a checkmate for Yasu - She would only be able to murder those who weren't in the parlor with everyone else, and as far as I remember, that boils down to only the servants - one of which must know what's going on - Genji that is - and Nanjo of course, he was checking the corpses in the shed which means he either confirmed that they were actually dead (I'm not sure we can assume that he checked all of them, although it would seem illogical to me that he didn't - that would just frame him) or he lied about them being dead, which adds him to the list of accomplices. ::: I also have a general issue with the whole "pretend it's a murder-game" prank. ::: I can fully understand the joke scenario in it, but there's one thing that tells me it cannot have been the "pretend-prank" - Why would Hideyoshi think it's a good idea to scar Maria for life? She's so young, she would've been severely hurt mentally - at least that's all Hideyoshi can assume, as he presumably doesn't know Maria thoroughly - so why would he be in on such a cruel prank? ::: And in "Our Confession", there's something very stiff about Natsuhi and Krauss. In a normal hostage/forced accomplice scenario, retaliation would happen instantly, when the hostage has the upper hand. And this goes for all these threats about the bomb - upon hearing there's a bomb, it seems illogical to me, not to attempt to retaliate / escape at the very first chance - which there are many of: Yasu's only Yasu, and Eva is trained in martial arts. I'm sure they could quickly overman Yasu - and also assume that she cannot remote-control the bomb with her mind. Incapitation of Yasu = Bomb threat somewhat "gone" (not gone literally, but delayed by the fact that they can assume that Yasu does not control the bomb, and that it's timed) - plenty of time to escape to the far ends of the 10km (?) long island, reaching safety. ::: I'm glad we got on the right foot this time, and that you're happy to discuss with me. ::: I, personally, enjoy a good discussion. ::: I hope you can convince me of the ShKanon theory. Not because I want to believe it, in fact I really deeply hope that it's not the answer (as it would sort of spoil the fun of thinking.) ::: But I hope you can convince me, because then I can lay it to rest, and then I'll have to accept that Umineko might not have been for me after all, despite following it from the very first day I could. ::: RaenaLamora (talk) 13:49, October 16, 2012 (UTC) ::: I just really love ShKanon so much because I believe it embodies everything that Umineko was meant to be about. And the bomb issue is that they are on a remote island in the middle of a typhoon and Hideyoshi probably didn't know the details of the bomb just that if he didn't cooperate she would set it off and he may have not understood what that meant as she probably phrased it in a way that made it say she could set it off at anytime. And trust me just believeing ShKanon doesn't stop the thinking. Just because you know who the culprit is doesn't mean the story is any less fun. In fact it's really fun to piece it all together and make sense of how she commited all the murders. And it wouldn't scar Maria because remember in Ep 6 the murders were not very violent and just small and Maria was even a fake corpse so I doubt it would scar her. And the whole thing was a fact of trust. He would lock himself up with Eva and not speak a word until the murders were done but Yasu wanted to make sure he didn't say anything and thought it was a perfect and easy oppritunity for the 2nd Twilight. Exactly. Ep 1 was probably the biggest game of chance for Yasu because it is the only game where everything could've crumbled horribly. Battler touching her breasts, not having a 2nd twilight victim, someone trying to see her corpse, someone examining the wound on her chest. No one being forced out of Kinzo's room. Pretty much it was her biggest risk in that game as so many factors could've completely stopped the murders. The reason I believe in ShKanon so much is because it is what Umineko is supposed to be about. Umineko isn't supposed to be about the Howdunnit like most mysteries it is about the Whydunnit. And that there is a reason behind every killer. They aren't all cold-blooded killers they have a reason to have commited so many murders and that even though the reason may be stupid to others. They want at least one person to understand and sympahthize with them. If you apply this to my Rokkenjima Prime Theory it all makes sense. Yasu's motive was George's motive. It was love that pushed them to commit gruesome murder and I believe that Yasu was trying to potray Geroge's feelings onto herself when she wrote the stories since she had similar feelings. AsukaHanyuYay (talk) 01:01, October 17, 2012 (UTC) ::: Sorry that I'm taking ages to reply, I'm semi-used to getting an email when someone edits stuff :p ::: In regards to Maria, Hideyoshi was making a huge gamble, seeing as the faces were crushed brutally in Episode 1. She would've been scarred for life if she had seen it, and there wasn't much he could do to make sure that she would stay inside. It was a pure gamble on his side, which I doubt he'd be willing to take. ::: Also, in the anime - which Ryukishi confirmed that he supervised carefully - George is implied to see Shannon's hand, yet he also sees Kanon. Of course this could've been a fake corpse, but it was also a gamble on Hideyoshi's side, because if ANYONE entered the shed, it would've been busted immediately. ::: I'm also curious about the japanese. I take it you're fluent in japanese, so I'd like you to translate the bit about the red truth regarding the definition of people - just to see what it should be, as opposed to Witch Hunt's translation. ::: And I'm also curious about personalities. If personalities are counted amongst people, then surely Yasu also counts, when counting Shannon and Kanon - so they're essentially 3 people when counted. ::: This sort of conflicts with the red statement about "even if you join us, there's 17 people" Since Kinzo is removed from that equation in an earlier episode, Shannon would count as herself, Kanon, and Yasu, which would make it 18 people. ::: RaenaLamora (talk) 11:29, October 20, 2012 (UTC) Terms you use I know this is dumb and I'm not gonna say anything about your theory but I'd really appreciate it if you would not refer to Shannon as a schizophrenic maniac because that is very offensive. Shannon is implied to be schizophrenic but she is not a maniac. To me Shannon is more then than just a character and I'd really like her to be shown respect AsukaHanyuYay (talk) 00:44, June 4, 2013 (UTC) You know it's dumb - why say it then? Let me ask you something: What is a maniac? If we go and play your weird fantasy-romance, and pretend Shannon DID commit all the murders - then she is most certainly a maniac. If Rosa committed all the murders, then Rosa's a maniac. If X committed - hell, you get the idea. Also, I don't know if you know this - but Shannon does not in any way feel, experience, or acknowledge anything - because she's an animated character, so respecting her is a bit... Extreme. Don't be that guy that everyone bullied because he fell in love with the ponies from MLP. Word of advice. I know that this is what YOU think, and you know what - I'm not one to tell you what to believe, so I'll apologize for calling her a maniac, but can we please come to the agreement that whoever commits all these murders has a screw loose, be it Shannon or Rosa, or God knows who. The only time I will intervene and be disrespectful to her however, is when you impose your opinion as truth, such as "Kanon: Alternate personality" in Shannon's relations. It is not written in red, so it should not be there. It should state "close friends, nearly sibling-like bond." and nothing more. Stuff like "alternate personalities" belongs in a theory-page. RaenaLamora (talk) 19:31, June 7, 2013 (UTC) Actually I have to agree on the 'Shkanon - opinion' part, as it's really never fully confirmed. It's like Lion's gender. Clues are there but no straight confirmation. And Shannon isn't the culprit. Yasu is. They aren't the same person. - Anon33 (talk) 20:44, June 7, 2013 (UTC) Who are you? Regardless, if they aren't the same person, then you acknowledge an outsider is the culprit, but that's not allowed. Yasu may very well be Shannon for all I care, her gradual change if you want to call it that. But Shannon is not Kanon, and Kanon is not Shannon, and they are NOT one body. And on a wiki, they're CERTAINLY not "alternate personalities" without some sort of evidence that happens to be unshakable. On a wiki, they're close friends, they came from the same orphanage, they have a sibling-like relationship, and that's all we know. RaenaLamora (talk) 20:50, June 7, 2013 (UTC) You see the story from a different perspective. That's your opinion. All of the 'evidence' you provided won't make sense just by changing viewpoint. So yeah.. Feel free to do whatever you want within certain limits as long as Asuka will give his agreement. Also we thought of a page dedicated to Rosatrice but neither of us care enough to actually make it. It would be nice if you could throw all this angst there. - Anon33 (talk) 22:22, June 7, 2013 (UTC) Evidence is evidence. Red truth is the game's rules, and it denies ShKanon. But I don't care about a Rosatrice page either, not at all. I care about getting the ShKanon bullsh*t out of the wiki, so people don't come here looking for objective information, and get fed bullsh*t. That's what I'm here for. And I'm not sure what this "angst" you're on about is, seeing as you're the one going on MY talk, bringing nothing constructive. Go away, christ. I knew I should've never voiced my opinion on this biased wiki. It's starting to become a daytime job replying to all of this nonsense. And no - it's not "my opinion" - it's what can be said, without making any weird subjective changes to the story. I care about what the red states. I don't make sh*t up, unlike others who for some reason came in charge of certain wikis. And I'm glad we agree about what's wrong: "Feel free to do what wikis are about - making sure nothing is subjective, as long as you do not make enemies with those of us who have a sexual relationship with certain anime-characters." Glad that we can both see how absurd that is. Oh, and get the hell away from my talk page, and stop whiteknighting for your otaku friend. You don't see "Sherlock got his ideas through magic" in the Sherlock Holmes wiki, so why should we have that here? I mean, with a bit (of really fucked up) imagination, we can assume that Holmes must be a magician as it would be convenient. But that's not there, because it's not mentioned in the story. Shannon is not mentioned to be Kanon in the story. Shannon is not mentioned to have an alternate personality. Kanon is not mentioned to be an alternate personality. Kanon IS mentioned to be a close friend of Shannon. See where I'm going? But because a couple of you are all horny over Shannon's supposedly fake tits, me saying that she's a maniac for murdering 16 people is going wayyyyy too far. She demands respect! An anime character, demands respect! Oh they let anyone edit wikis nowadays. But I guess that's what wikis are about now. RaenaLamora (talk) 23:06, June 7, 2013 (UTC) From my and many others viewpoint nothing denies Shkanon. Your evidence is invalid. Calm down already and return to youtube or something. Kanon is never said to be Shannon's friend. Shannon and Kanon are characters Yasu created. And it is mentioned in the story. And again.. Yasu and Shannon aren't the same person. Ryukishi writes them as different characters. Please don't forget that. "Oh they let anyone edit wikis nowadays. But I guess that's what wikis are about now." Which means nothing stops you from editing it too? - Anon33 (talk) 08:06, June 8, 2013 (UTC) Kanon is said to be Shannon's friend. Says so in the TIPS. But you didn't read the novels, so it's alright that you didn't see. I believe you just proved everything right there: You didn't read the novels. If you did, you'd know it says they're close friends. And if you did, you'd know that it does not say that Shkanon is plausible, nor that its even there. Shannon and Kanon are not characters Yasu created and it is not mentioned in the story. From your and many others viewpoint, nothing denies Shkanon - sure, but from your viewpoint, there's no such thing as evidence either. You just make stuff up. And again: Yasu and Shannon aren't the same person: Who gives a shit? Ryukishi writes them as different characters, and Ryukishi writes red truth that denies Shkanon, so Yasu is absolutely irrelevant - Please don't forget that. And yes - You, and your bumbuddy stops me from it. But my cup of cares was emptied so long ago, now I just enjoy reading your nonsensical bullshit :p I mean: "Kanon is never said to be Shannon's friend. Shannon and Kanon are characters Yasu created. And it is mentioned in the story. ''" '''NOPE. '''There's not even room for a discussion there, that's just not true. And that whole perspective thing, give me a break. From your perspective, nothing that denies Shkanon exists. From your religious perspective, if anything contradicts the Bible, you deny it. Oh yeah, there we go again: You remind me of religious people. For instance, a stupid Shkanon Bible lover would say: "Christianity is the most caring and loving religion of all religions" And I'll say: "Well, in the Bible, which we must agree is the first hand source of evidence in religion, God kills the entire planet earth except 1 man, and 2 of each animals, then murders every woman and child in Egypt." You: "Nope, my perspective blinds me from seeing such cruelty, you're making it up. Go play on YouTube or something." It feels so good being right, please, write more for me to absolutely demolish. "Shkanon is possible" NOPE, Red truth, the only for-a-fact-evidence we have in the novels denies it. You cannot turn your eyes away from that. Oh wait, you did. Nevermind. Carry on! Play out the mystery novel by saying "Kanon exists when it's convenient", I'm sure it makes a lot of sense to you when you discard the rules, just like discarding the rules when playing chess. Who cares if the knight can only move a certain direction, you'll just take him and tilt the king with your first move, using your own rules! PERSPECTIVE ladies and gentlemen, in the magical land of Anon33's perspectives, this is entirely possible because his perspective blinds him from the simple aspect of rules. Must be good to be you. Everything must make sense to you, and if it doesn't, you just change it till it does. Reminds me a bit of Crazy Amy's Baking Company. If anything points out anything wrong with what you're doing, you retaliate and ignore everything you hear, whilst saying "NOPE, MY PERSPECTIVE MAKES IT RIGHT, YOU'RE WRONG." I'm begging you, please continue. So far you've brought nothing useful, besides claims that you cannot back-up, and it's tickling my wee-wee, reading the absurd mind of yours, a bit like Shannon tickles yours. RaenaLamora (talk) 10:49, June 8, 2013 (UTC) Okay well first of all the only one forcing their beliefs onto others is you. And no neither Rosa or Shannon are maniacs. A maniac is someone who is mentally insane. No matter who you believe the culprit is none of them are insane. And you know what no I'm not like in love with Shannon but I respect her as a character because I can relate to her. I feel and know her pain. And also the reason for the alternate personality is because that's what they are. They are never stated in red to be close friends so why should we change it to that. AsukaHanyuYay (talk) 21:18, June 8, 2013 (UTC) Good God, these Rosatricers are just infinitely annoying and never seem to give up! You haven't really provided anything to backup your Rosatrice theory, by the way. Essentially a coherent Rosatrice theory would have to: *'Cite actual dispository evidence of her mystery background and association to Battler'. Just the thought of Rosa developing an all-consuming, self-destructive love for Battler just makes me laugh every single time. *Account for why Shkanon is true (and why it's even happening) but why all the things that point to Shkanon/Yasu as Beatrice are misleading. *Explain either how Rosa can be the culprit on all game boards '''or' why Shkanon or someone else is being used as a gameboard culprit to cover for Rosa (and how evidence on the boards actually proves this). *Provide a coherent explanation for why neither Eva nor Battler would wish for information of Rosa's involvement to go public, and why Eva would refuse to even tell Ange about it in private. *'Explain both how ep7 applies to Rosa, why it's presented the way it is, what textual evidence proves it's strictly metaphorical and/or related by second degree to the actual culprit, and why Clair accepts Will's answers.' *Provide coherent rationalization for how someone as impulsive as Rosa managed to outwit her considerably sharper siblings (she doesn't do so hot in the ep7 Tea Party, for example) and everyone else, while sometimes being dead. *'Address the additional information provided in ''Our Confession and the manga that shows a near 1:1 correspondence of Yasu to Beatrice', such as the ep8 manga suggesting Shannon and Beatrice use the same spraypaint trick, or the extra material detailing Beatrice's conversation with Natsuhi about the baby. *'Oh right, address the baby.' *Not use any of the information pertaining to Bern's gameboard in ep8 unless it can be demonstrated that it is relevant '''and' all rules from the board are accepted if any rule from the board is used (e.g. if you're going to cite to it, you also have to accept things like Shkanon and George only being able to murder children). In fact, if Rosatrice were true I'd argue it makes the ending of the work even worse, because it fails to address that point and make sense of it in its entirety. At least we got some resolution to the Battler/Yasu thing in ep8. There's no reason to think that Ryukishi is particularly concerned with being absolutely logically consistent since the whole point of Chiru was that he wanted the readers to look for the bigger picture, the "heart", rather than becoming preoccupied with the little details in the closed room puzzles and coming to clear, unambiguous definitions for everything. To this end, I believe that the best Umineko theories are the ones that best explain the WHITE TEXT and the various MAGICAL SCENES that may not have physically occured on the gameboard btu are nonetheless extremely significant in terms of providing clues regarding the true "heart" of the culprit/mystery. In the respect, every Rosatrice theory fails miserably and deviates so ridiculously away from what Ryukishi wanted us to understand regarding the "heart" of Chiru that it seems outright disrespectful to not only the series but also the author as well. Unlimitedslapworks (talk) 05:19, July 25, 2013 (UTC)